Curse

s73ve_o · Mar 09, 2009, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia

Two words. Siege turtles. Completely imba now more than ever.

cant have imbas in FA, its a PvP area, so SY, and TNTF for that matter, cant be taken in to battle effectively making paras worthless in pvp. Nice try though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Fair would be actual balance, not vengeance.

Also, you are shooting yourself in the foot. Luxons would actually play FA and not force you to wait 10 years to enter match if they had a fair chance at winning.

first of all i never said that was fair, im just saying suck it up like we did for the 1st few years factions was out

secondly the kurzicks never gave up on playing FA through the years, even with the huge disadvantage, so i dont know where you are coming with that one.

no comment on your jade quarry inquiries since i have only played it a total of 2 times in my life

Giga_Gaia · Mar 09, 2009, 07:29 AM // 07:29

^Errm, what? I was agreeing with your earlier statement that Luxons had (and still do) the advantage there, if only because of how stupidly powerful the siege turtles have become.

Shadow Slave · Mar 09, 2009, 12:06 PM // 12:06

The Luxons having a disadvantage after the update doesn't mean the Kurzicks were at a disadvantage prior to it - as the thread title suggests, it was arguably 'balanced'

All they ever needed was a bonder (of which there were normally 2/3) and opponents too dumb to bring the appropriate counter = insta-win. (Random teams says hai.)

Until the update Prot Spirit was always > Siege Turtle....uh oh, buff! - now you need to cover it even more often.... /facepalm

Instead of loosening things up (as the update intended) - it is now tilted too heavily in the Kurz favor - they've always had the superior Npcs anyway (understandable, because it's your 'fort' I guess..) - Lux get a bunch of Warriors running towards nothing but counters lol (i.e. Kurz Ele and Necro Npcs ~)

Not mentioning the moronic AI -

The timer is too short, paired with Npcs that fail - this places heavy reliance on lux players (random teams says hai agen), whereas the kurz have their superior Npcs to fall back on.

There is a much greater emphasis on the required types of players and builds needed to succeed on the Luxon side - Kurz can essentially /load 'defensive/running build' and wait for the Timer to run out while sheltered behind their Npcs.

Gate actually broken? - uhoh.../amber. Try again Luxon. Owait, time up...gg

Neverending Silence · Mar 09, 2009, 12:21 PM // 12:21

There's nothing difficult about winning Fort Aspenwood on the Luxon side...stop bringing stupid builds and que up with ppl who actually know how to play FA and JQ. The problem isn't any "unbalance", its just the simple fact that most of the luxons aren't running the right builds...

Just watch most of the FA and JQ matches...the MAJORITY of kurzicks run proper builds, whilst only half of the luxons tops run/play their builds correctly.
Luxons only do good on the weekends too when their pros get on and play.

So stop the QQ and just l2play or go kurz

Shadow Slave · Mar 09, 2009, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neverending Silence

...stop bringing stupid builds and que up with ppl who actually know how to play ...most of the luxons aren't running the right builds...

...the MAJORITY of kurzicks run proper builds, whilst only half of the luxons tops run/play their builds correctly.

Well this is my point - You can't 'team up' to ensure everyone is bringing the right builds. Maybe the solution is to allow teaming. (That actually would be pretty awesome)

Your one build isnt going to win the game if you have several people with ineffective builds - there isn't enough time.

Luxons aren't running the 'right builds' because there is more for them to consider, the reality being, most people just Dont.

Luxons wouldn't have to 'que up'/sync if there was 'balance'.

s73ve_o · Mar 09, 2009, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia

^Errm, what? I was agreeing with your earlier statement that Luxons had (and still do) the advantage there, if only because of how stupidly powerful the siege turtles have become.

ohh sorry i misunderstood :P thought you meant we can use imbas which make turt siege do like no dmg hehe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

All they ever needed was a bonder (of which there were normally 2/3) and opponents too dumb to bring the appropriate counter = insta-win. (Random teams says hai.)............................................. .......................................
.......................................There is a much greater emphasis on the required types of players and builds needed to succeed on the Luxon side - Kurz can essentially /load 'defensive/running build' and wait for the Timer to run out while sheltered behind their Npcs.

correct me if im wrong but the gist of this is that it is ok to force the kurzicks to bring specific builds into the game every time to win (ie bonders, runners) but whn the luxons need their specific builds it is an atrocity? Its funny how some people think in this game

Shadow Slave · Mar 09, 2009, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Nope, dont think you quite got where I was coming from.

~ Kurz were never forced to bring a bonder or monk in general....but they were/are so effective given the format, that at least one always did for an easy win -

Then it was just sitting and waiting out the timer while the numerous luxons who didn't bother to bring a counter for this oh-so-common situation floundered around outside the gates.

(Anet noticed this - hence the turtle disenchant buff)

However...now the timer is so short that the new 'effective must-have kurzick build' is anything that can run, heal or abuse the broken AI.

Dont have a healer/bonder? Then just run amber all game.

Oh, and they were never 'forced' to bring runners either lol - just click on Amber and walk with it if you have to....

Or then again, dont. - 'the timer fills itself anyway....lets defend moar'

Dr Strangelove · Mar 09, 2009, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Kurzicks without a monk will almost certainly lose against anything but a completely incompetent luxon team.

If both the Kurzicks and Luxons have monks, the luxons will almost certainly win on the strength of their siege turtles and warrior gank squads.

Balance is still skewed towards the Luxons, but there's a lot more leeching and general idiocy going on for the Luxon teams than the Kurzicks, I have no idea why. I suppose leeching the Luxons gives a bit more faction since even a deeply retarded team can break the first gates.

wilebill · Mar 09, 2009, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Yes, even a deeply retarded Luxon team can break the front gates unless you have four leechers, three leavers, and one me. Who after considering the situation resigned.

I don't see this as a Luxon versus Kurzick thing. I don't see it as a balance problem. Fort Aspenwood is balanced IMHO.

The problem here is ANet not being able for one reason or another to stop the leechers.

ANet should say something one way or another. The silence from ANet about Fort Aspenwood is deafening.

UnChosen · Mar 10, 2009, 12:56 AM // 00:56

What's the point of discussing about balance...Yesterday I got into a match with 8 luxon leechers and 6 kurzick leechers, and the remaining non leecher left before knowing luxon had 8 leechers....so I just /danced and minimized GW for the faction >.>

Esprit · Mar 10, 2009, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

What's the point of discussing about balance...Yesterday I got into a match with 8 luxon leechers and 6 kurzick leechers, and the remaining non leecher left before knowing luxon had 8 leechers....so I just /danced and minimized GW for the faction >.>

Anet, if you are reading this thread, the above post pretty much explained in a few lines how broken Fort Aspenwood is.

T. Drake · Mar 10, 2009, 05:54 AM // 05:54

They really need to punish leeching more.

In one of the matches I played my group reported one leecher. Apparently he was in front of his computer and wrote: "Report me all you want. I'll be back"

Yeah if that isn't obvious how leechers feel about the current dishonour system, I don't know.

How does that sound:

Acquired dishonored status -> Flagged, can't join PvP matches for one hour

Acquired dishonored status once more -> Temporary ban for 24 hours
(or can't join a PvP match for 24 hours
or let the system work accumulative: Dishonored -> can't joing matches for one hour -> dishonored again within 24 hours -> can't join matches for 2 hours -> ...)

The flag is reset after 24 hours without leeching.

Just a quick thought about that. I know this has nothing to do with balance, but this is currently the main issue. It is pointless to talk about balance if most of the time teams fight in an uneven measure.

FoxBat · Mar 10, 2009, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by s73ve_o

secondly the kurzicks never gave up on playing FA through the years, even with the huge disadvantage, so i dont know where you are coming with that one.

Because the luxons never entered JQ. There was nowhere else to go pvp for faction without the hassle of an AB pug. When the place was bugged and Kurzicks could exit the gates early killed it. Then once this was fixed, it stayed dead because luxons had a better shot in FA due to the imbalance in their favor.

As the smaller party, the luxons get to dictate which modes are played, because there are always kurzicks waiting on luxons to join. The only reason I suspect that Kurzicks even play JQ is because the wait isn't so interminable compared to FA.

Quote:

cant have imbas in FA

You know what, never mind, why am I even bothering?

s73ve_o · Mar 10, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

~ Kurz were never forced to bring a bonder or monk in general....but they were/are so effective given the format, that at least one always did for an easy win -

Then it was just sitting and waiting out the timer while the numerous luxons who didn't bother to bring a counter for this oh-so-common situation floundered around outside the gates.

(Anet noticed this - hence the turtle disenchant buff)

However...now the timer is so short that the new 'effective must-have kurzick build' is anything that can run, heal or abuse the broken AI.

Dont have a healer/bonder? Then just run amber all game.

Oh, and they were never 'forced' to bring runners either lol - just click on Amber and walk with it if you have to....

Or then again, dont. - 'the timer fills itself anyway....lets defend moar'

i dont know if you played back before the whole faction update, but the Kurzicks were at an EXTREME disadvantage, with them winning approx. 1/5 of the time. rarely did i see leechers or anything else that would screw us over, it was just plain hard to win there, unless of course we brought the appropriate builds (a single bonder wouldnt cut it, and as far as runners go, no matter what build they actually took if they were running amber they were still doing absolutely nothing to help actually defend, so there is no difference there, other than that they are even less effective (slower, easier to kill))

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Because the luxons never entered JQ. There was nowhere else to go pvp for faction without the hassle of an AB pug. When the place was bugged and Kurzicks could exit the gates early killed it. Then once this was fixed, it stayed dead because luxons had a better shot in FA due to the imbalance in their favor.

As the smaller party, the luxons get to dictate which modes are played, because there are always kurzicks waiting on luxons to join. The only reason I suspect that Kurzicks even play JQ is because the wait isn't so interminable compared to FA.

i take this part as you agreeing with me, though after the next comment im not really sure. anyways yeah after that whole glitch thing killed it and the luxons had realized how easy it was to win in FA no matter how terrible they were, they decided to stay there. no matter what kurzicks just didnt have the ability to sway them back to JQ after it was fixed because the luxons liked the easy FA faction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Quote:
cant have imbas in FA

You know what, never mind, why am I even bothering?

Not sure why you turned on my all of a sudden but either way that was a miscommunication i thought the other guy was saying to bring imbas to combat turts, thats all.

Giga_Gaia · Mar 10, 2009, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

Instead of loosening things up (as the update intended) - it is now tilted too heavily in the Kurz favor - they've always had the superior Npcs anyway (understandable, because it's your 'fort' I guess..) - Lux get a bunch of Warriors running towards nothing but counters lol (i.e. Kurz Ele and Necro Npcs ~)

Not mentioning the moronic AI -

The timer is too short, paired with Npcs that fail - this places heavy reliance on lux players (random teams says hai agen), whereas the kurz have their superior Npcs to fall back on.

There is a much greater emphasis on the required types of players and builds needed to succeed on the Luxon side - Kurz can essentially /load 'defensive/running build' and wait for the Timer to run out while sheltered behind their Npcs.

Gate actually broken? - uhoh.../amber. Try again Luxon. Owait, time up...gg

Wait, what? You think that gate npc's that just stand inside 5 aoe's and dies in 2 seconds, or just stands there trying to tank the siege turtle attacks are superior? You think that the juggernaut that has no special attacks, walk around sloooowly trying to reach the turtles and then getting stuck because the whole luxon team is mobbing it, is superior? You think that the kurzick assassins and warriors that run into a huge mob of enemies on their own doing absolutely nothing are superior?

Also the decreased in timer. Did you realize that before, kurzicks had to endure the whole ~20 minutes just to win? Luxons could storm through the fort in 5 minutes, get the faction and move on to another game. Do you realize just how imbalanced the rate of faction gain was for luxons? Now it's relatively even. Luxons can still storm through in 5 minutes or less and win the match, but at least kurzicks don't have to hold inside green for 20 minutes now fighting wave after wave of luxons. If you ever tried monking those matches, they were pretty tough.

And the gates... break down so easily now, I don't even know what the point of having them are anymore. The ledges are nice, but only for the 20 seconds or so until they break down the gate and the goon squad runs inside to mow you down. Now kurzicks mostly hold their defense inside the main fort (between the inner gates and green).

EDIT: yeah that imba comment was aimed at me. I don't think steve was saying that FA was balanced. But really, I had no idea what he was trying to say

Shadow Slave · Mar 11, 2009, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia

Wait, what? You think that gate npc's that just stand inside 5 aoe's and dies in 2 seconds, or just stands there trying to tank the siege turtle attacks are superior? You think that the juggernaut that has no special attacks, walk around sloooowly trying to reach the turtles and then getting stuck because the whole luxon team is mobbing it, is superior? You think that the kurzick assassins and warriors that run into a huge mob of enemies on their own doing absolutely nothing are superior?

Yes. Im talking about in their own right - Self sufficiency (i.e. placing less emphasis on players...I'm pretty sure you haven't read most of my posts).
Command post npcs fail - Middle Amber mine Npcs are redundant 99% of the time. Other Amber Mine Rangers are crap. Turtle tends to fire at spirits > players.

The only good thing about the Luxon Warriors is that at least one of them tends to have a 'Coward' charged. Otherwise they /fail against Ward against Melee and Reckless Haste....leaving them to just Heal Sig spam ~

Better yet, they sometimes decide to 'Not Die' - standing around near a wall or something so the Luxons can't even get a Siege Turtle back.

Quote:

kurzicks had to endure the whole ~20 minutes just to win? Luxons could storm through the fort in 5 minutes, get the faction and move on to another game. Do you realize just how imbalanced the rate of faction gain was for luxons? ...If you ever tried monking those matches, they were pretty tough.

Meh - I did try monking those matches. I found it quite fun ~ Having to hold out for 20 minutes was a good challenge and just 'part of the format'. Now it's over too quickly.

Anet should have addressed the faction gain, I agree - but this update didn't solve/encourage anything (Hence the hoards of leechers)

Quote:

And the gates... break down so easily now, I don't even know what the point of having them are anymore. The ledges are nice, but only for the 20 seconds or so until they break down the gate and the goon squad runs inside to mow you down.

At which point the guy who has been standing next to a Gatekeeper for 5 minutes, gives him the Amber - gate fixed again, so back to square 1 for the luxons.

I guess the option then is to capture the Amber Mines - but again, the Rit npcs are slightly more potent than the Rangers we get...and time spent trying to hold the Amber mines is time spent not doing what you're supposed to be doing. (I.e. Kill Gunther)

FoxBat · Mar 11, 2009, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Fort aspenwood is hard to theroycraft because it's inheriently asymmetrical. Each side has different NPCs and different goals, different strengths and weaknesses- we can note them, but it's hard to weigh them against each other and determine a conclusion. Consider also that if we had two perfectly matched teams that stalemated each other and could not get kills, then the Kurzicks would win- that makes it difficult to even concieve of what true balance would look like.

So I only try to measure it practically by average win-loss ratio, especially compared to a mostly symmetrical place like JQ. Before the timer change it was hard to lose a match on the luxon side; after it, it's become hard to win, and I have yet to see consecutive victories. so many matches that I've monked/ritted turtles deep into the base, only to get stuck on the green gate for the next 5 mins and lose.

Ultimately the only solution is to introduce new "imbalances" to one side or the other until a more even win ratio is established. Although that is hard to do with the added leecher issue, which I agree is far more pressing than balance concerns.

Personally I would trade dumber turtles for weaker ones. Turtles that saved their siege attacks only for NPCs, but dealt less damage/could be interrupted/less enchant stripping/whatever. Watching a single defy pain yahoo negate your entire offense is disheartening. The matches are also very lopsided as to whether or not the enemy team has players that understand how to abuse the AI. Having turtles perform in a consistent if less powerful way would make for much better gameplay.

Giga_Gaia · Mar 11, 2009, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Shadow Slave - You have some good points, I'll agree to that. Except, you left out one vital thing in comparing each sides' npc's: siege turtles. If you left the npc's alone to battle it out on their own, you'll find that the (mega imba) turtles will destroy everything, the warriors don't even have to do much except wail on the useless juggernaut. I've already said in my previous posts (page 18 I think) why I think lux npc's are more efficient, so I'll say this instead:

Of course the kurz npc's will have some spells... what else are they going to do? Wand their enemies to death? They can counter the warriors, but the siege turtles counter the npc's. The juggernaut is supposed to counter the turtles, who are then protected by the warriors. This then was supposed to achieve some sort of balance which is then left up to the players to tilt in their favor. Still, they're not hard to kill.

It's true that both teams need to be coordinated in order to succeed, but I think many will agree that if everyone had no idea what they're doing, the luxon team will win. The randomness doesn't help either, I agree, but then again both sides are random. It's what you guys can do with it that can help you win or lose (or just sync).

Shadow Slave · Mar 11, 2009, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia

...

Well I appreciate the points you make too, being argumentative for the sake of discussion really

Obviously I'm not saying the Ele's shouldn't have any spells - but Unsteady Ground + Sliver Armor + Ward against Melee (get past the 1st gate and) + Reckless Haste (and then Plague Signet) seems like overkill to me. They render the Warrior Npcs useless and practically any Luxon who decides to bring melee.

Granted maybe that just means 'dont bring a melee Character', but not every luxon seems to think that far in advance ~ and I think it's an unfair restriction to place on the luxons anyway.

The Turtles are cleary strong, but far from invincible, especially after the Npcs just mentioned have taken care of all the Warriors - and lets not forget they require a player to trigger them (which after the first kill, people usually don't......god that's frustrating)

- I don't agree that the luxons would win if no-one knew what they were doing. There would just be random scrimmages breaking out all over the place, turtles would never get sent, and the timer would expire before anyone had a clue what was going on.

Has an organised version of Aspenwood been suggested before? I can't help but think that's the way forward....though I won't get my hopes up.

belladonna shylock · Mar 16, 2009, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Shadow, both sides have a weakness. melee is bad on luxon side and anything revolving around enchants is bad on kurzick side. so, both sides do have restrictions.

and you're also forgetting the NPC on kurzick side cannot take out the npc luxon warriors UNLESS the turtle is already dead. well, the exception is if the gates are raised on top of the turtle..which is rare but does happpen.

i think both sides are balanced, in faction gain and in npcs. win/loss ratio is not fair, but who cares. the kurzick have to wait forever to enter the battle. this means even if they win, their faction gain is far less due to the wait. I'd even dare to say the luxons gain faster faction and balth. this is probably why most leechers are on the luxon side as well.

as far as people crying about the siege turtles, use xinrae's weapon. not only will it cause the turtle to do almost no damage to you, but it also can kill the turtle.

as far as the griefers, bring signet of creation. it works on anyone's minions. they can't let enough minions loose after they die if you use it on their minions. rits can heal the entire party AND take care of the griefers

you can sync in FA. if they made it team based it would turn into the ever-crappy HA, except with one map.